Sunday, July 20, 2008

more border crossings...


















well, we've been busy traveling... our most recent endeavors have taken us across the ohio river, from kentucky to west virginia, then through maryland and into virgina before settling in washington, dc. maybe i should back up a little bit first. a few weeks ago, i had a chance to take a phone interview with the corporate chef from groupe alain ducasse, arranged by my old chef and good friend, bertrand. it quickly led to a few more interviews and eventually to alina and i deciding to buy last minute tickets out of amman, jordan back home to louisville... can you believe that? after 9 months of methodical planning we had to make a decision to get airborn in less than 30 minutes. looking back, i am glad we did it. the job has come through - a sous chef position in alain ducasse's new kitchen at the st. regis hotel in washington, dc. it is called adour and will be opening sometime in september.
we did get to spend a few very short days in the ville before we had to take off - one of my oldest and best friends, kate, somehow managed to delay childbirth for 10 extra days just so i could be there to see her beautiful new baby - john douglas ratliff. he is awesome - we also got to spend time with a few other friends (ainsley) and family before we had to jump in a uhaul and cruise 700 miles east to the nation's capital.
right now we are living out of an extended stay hotel, driving a rental car and using a uhaul storage as our closet... things are still a little up in the air - hopefully within a couple of weeks we'll find an apartment and settle in a bit. we still can't believe that we are back in the united states, let alone in a new city getting ready to start a new job. it all happened so fast and rather opposite of how we had planned... we'll keep you posted on how it all unfolds. david

Thursday, July 10, 2008

jordan, the wrap up

our comments and observations of jordan:

• jordanian people are kind, warm, generous, and honest people.
• the most common greeting in jordan is "you are welcome to jordan!"
• jordanian people approach tourists to simply chat - they are not selling anything, nor getting paid a commission, nor begging for money…really quite refreshing
• compared to egypt, jordan seems to be more conservative and traditional. outside of amman and the surrounding area, the country has a somewhat "rural" feel.
• the natural landscape of jordan is stunning and beautiful. the rock, sand, and lunar landscapes seem almost other-worldly.
• jordan is lacking in public transportation systems. limited mini van transport is the most common mode of country transportation, which still gave us a fair amount of challenges.
• we slept in a tent on the roof in the capitol city…for only one night…
• jordan has delicious peaches, olives, and yoghurt…of course, not all combined
• how much hummus and felafel can we eat? loads…luckily, we love it!
• compared to egypt, english is not as widely spoken in jordan. it does seem that almost everyone knows how to say "hello and welcome!"
• jordanians are civilized drivers. they yield to pedestrians and don't honk near as much as the rest of the world.
• jordan has less beggars than the rest of the world also - during our entire stay we were only approached by a couple.
• masks aren't produced in jordan. we searched far and wide and were disappointed to be unable to add a jordanian mask to our collection.
• it's still a shisha and tea culture…just with fewer local women partaking
• things in jordan cost somewhat more than in egypt, but are still affordable to the western tourist.

what things cost in jordan:

• the ferry from egypt to jordan to cross the border $16.00
• double ensuite room at the mariam hotel in madaba $42.00
• a two day pass to petra $37.00
• admission to mt. nebo $1.40
• admission to amman beach $17.00
• a mud bath at amman beach $3.50
• a hired cab for the day in madaba $43.00
• a three-hour mini van ride from wadi musa to amman $5.60
• apple shisha $1.15
• internet usage at a café $2.25 per hour
• mint tea $0.75
• large bottled water $0.50
• large bottled water at petra $2.80
• 12 oz diet coke $0.50
• fresh squeezed orange juice $1.00
• felafel sandwich from a street vendor $0.35
• hummus $0.75
• fuul $0.75
• a casual jordanian dinner for two $9.00
• shwarma sandwich with french fries and salad $1.75
• a large chicken kabob $3.50
• one kilo of mixed fruits $1.00
• a local bedouin scarf $5.60
• silver earrings $17.00
• an evil eye ornament $4.20
• postcard $0.35
• postage to the usa $1.40

what's next?
.....???.............

Saturday, July 5, 2008

mt nebo, bethany and the dead sea





















i guess you could consider our journey to madaba something of a religious pilgrimage. throughout the last 8 months, we've made our way around the world discovering numerous buddhist and hindu places of pilgrimage. however, we have seen relatively few christian places of importance. a couple of weeks ago we climbed mt. sinai and watched sunrise at the site where god gave moses the ten commandments... since then, we have gotten more excited about the part of the world we are in and what we can see here. that trip to sinai has even inspired us to consider visiting israel to visit jeruslaem, bethlehem and nazareth. a few days ago, though, we got to see some very important christian and jewish sites right here in jordan.
our day started with a visit to the top of mt. nebo and the moses memorial church. here, at mt. nebo, is where god showed moses the promised land and also the area where moses died at the age of 120. in addition to it's religious significance, it also provided us with an amazing view of the jordan river valley, the dead sea and, of course, israel (the promised land...). afterwards we made our way down into the jordan river valley to visit the site of john the baptist's missionary at bethany-beyond-the-jordan. bethany is most importantly known as the site of jesus' baptism, but is also considered the site where the prophet elijah ascended into heaven. it was a special place and we felt very humbled to be there. after our two religious stops, we got do something dramatically less spiritual when we went to amman beach on the shore of the dead sea. we got to float in the salt laden waters, feeling more buoyant than ever - a very awkward experience. afterwards, we covered ourselves in the mineral rich mud of the dead sea and let it work it's magic. after a few more hours lounging poolside and absorbing the unique sunlight of the area (below 400 meters sea level, the area around the dead sea receives less uv rays than anywhere on earth...) we headed back to madaba where we continued the pampering with steaming, jacuzzi, scrubbing and massage at the madaba turkish bath. all in all, the day proved to be one of the most spiritually significant and one of the most enjoyable of our 8 months of travel. david

Saturday, June 28, 2008

visiting petra



















we're in jordan and we wasted no time making our way to the town of wadi musa, located outside of the ancient city of petra. for those of you that are indian jones fans, this is the huge temple complex that was used as the backdrop for 'the last crusade.' a few years before that, about 2000, it was the home to the nabataean empire. if you are like me and have never heard of the nabataeans, they were major middlemen in the arabic spice route and made fortunes of money in the frankincense, myrrh and indian spices - real old school, biblical stuff… as our guidebook explains, they bought all of the goods as they entered petra, sold the traders new camel caravans and then resold the spices to others who transported everything on through sinai and then to alexandria where it was loaded onto boats and headed to europe. anyways, they made a fortune in the process and in turn created some of the most amazing temples, tombs and amphitheaters with their wealth - all carved right into and out of the steep red sandstone cliffs of the valley they settled. we bought a two day pass to see the ruins spread throughout the valley. however, we were feeling rather energetic and managed to see most of the major sites today including the treasury, the main building carved right into a massive cliff, and the monastery, an even larger building carved into the mountains. they were both awesome and the 800 stairs to the top of the valley to see the monastery rewarded us with excellent views of the ancient city below.

after 8 hours of hiking, we rewarded ourselves with a few falafel sandwiches, some local yogurt and the best peaches i have ever tasted (sorry georgia). we’re resting and relaxing tonight while gearing up for another day in the valley - tomorrow a climb to the 'high place of sacrifice' - i think the name says it all…

david

Wednesday, June 25, 2008

egypt, the wrap up

our comments and observations of egypt:

• egyptians are kind, helpful, smiling, and happy people.
• egyptians are welcoming. a most common greeting is "welcome to egypt!"
• the pyramids and ancient sights of egypt are definitely some of the best we've seen on the trip. they are astounding sights that we will not soon forget.
• a huge percentage of tourists in egypt are on package tours. as independent travelers we were definitely a part of the minority.
• egyptian men are rather forward and a bit too flirtatious for my taste. even though i dressed conservatively and was accompanied by two men (one being my husband), i still received an inappropriate amount of unwanted male attention. i can only imagine the amount of headache female travelers must deal with when traveling to egypt on their own…
• i'm over the leering…
• hassles, hustles, and scams…they say egypt is full of them. we actually weren't hassled nearly as much as we expected. the worst we dealt with were obnoxious souvenir touts with their "do you know how much?" - which was actually kind of amusing at times. thankfully, we traveled the country without being hustled or scammed…of course, we didn't start traveling yesterday.
• we quickly realized that many numbers are displayed primarily in arabic and not in roman numerals. needless to say, we gave ourselves a crash course on reading arabic numbers so we could simply ride the bus or decipher signs.
• the mcarabia: lamb patties with tomatoes, cucumbers, and tahini sauce on a pita bread - another unique mcdonalds menu item.
• the food in egypt is delicious! i was thrilled to finally have so many raw fruits and vegetables readily available. prior to egypt, i was craving salad in a mean way.
• egyptians smoke as if they are exempt from lung cancer. shisha and tea seems to be a part of daily (or all day) culture. shisha = water pipe with flavored tobacco such as apple, mango, peach, lemon, or honey - actually quite nice and relaxing on occasion.
• we love the call to prayer! to us it sounds magical and beautiful.
• many egyptian buildings lack a proper roof. it appears that additional floors are a plan for the future - perhaps for new wives?
• with egyptian wages being very low, many workers depend on the baksheesh (tip) as a vital component of their income. unfortunately, it often seemed that people wanted a baksheesh for doing…nothing. rather annoying at times.
• with a lack of fixed pricing, signage, and price lists, egypt is another country that tends to "tax" foreign tourists almost constantly. a pound here, a pound there, its easy to feel that your constantly being overcharged. we learned to accept it and deal with it without letting it ruin our day. steep admission fees are the biggest expense for travelers to egypt - and even with the foreign "tax", it still remains affordable to the western traveler.

what things cost in egypt:

• a triple ensuite a/c room at the tutotel hotel in luxor $31.00
• the 9 hr. overnight tourist train from cairo to luxor $60.00
• a short ride on the cairo metro $0.20
• a 9hr. hour bus from cairo to dahab $17.00
• a city bus to the giza pyramids $0.40
• admission to the giza plateau $10.00
• photos with a camel in giza $4.00
• admission to the egyptian museum $10.00
• additional museum fee to see the royal mummies $14.00
• admission to luxor temple $8.00
• a hired cab for the day in luxor $30.00
• mt. sinai excursion $20.00
• mint tea at a local café $0.60
• shisha with apple tobacco $1.00
• turkish coffee $0.80
• a large bottled water $0.40
• a bottle of stella beer $2.25
• 12 oz diet coke $0.50
• large shwarma sandwich $1.75
• hummus dip $0.40
• felafel sandwich $0.30
• fuul in pita $0.20
• stuffed grape leaves $2.50
• a large salad with feta cheese $2.25
• half-chicken dinner with salad and rice $5.00
• a large selection of mezze for 3 people $12.00
• a nice seafood dinner for 3 in Alexandria $40.00
• a cotton scarf $2.00
• shell earrings $2.00
• the egypt mask $7.00
• postcard $0.20
• postage to the usa $0.55

what's next?

tomorrow we'll take a one hour bus to the port town of nuweiba, then a one hour ferry across the red sea to aqaba, jordan. we'll see you in the middle east!

onward!

alina

climbing mt. sinai



















after nearly 8 months of visiting countless buddhist and hindu religious sites we finally are pilgrims ourselves. our trip to the summit of mt. sinai, where moses received the ten commandments from god, began at 11:30pm when we left the confines of our guesthouse and set out on a two hour bus ride through the sinai peninsula to the monastery of st. catherine's at the base of the 3000 meter mountain. our group of 12 met up with a bedouin guide, whose job it was to see that we safely made it to the top of the mountain before sunrise, roughly 4 hours in our future… at that point, we should have realized that the hike to the summit would be far more difficult than the guidebooks led on. in fact, the 6-kilometer (roughly 3 mile) hike to the summit, capped off with a climb up 750 steep stone stairs, was by far the most physically challenging thing that we have done in all of our travels. the somewhat steep, gravel and rock switchbacks seemed never-ending in the middle of the night. and when we did finally reach the base of the stone stairway, we were long done wondering if the trip was worth all of the effort. however, perhaps through divine intervention, we persevered and found ourselves amid a few hundred other pilgrims at the summit of mt. sinai roughly an hour before sunrise. as we vied for a place to sit among the crowd, we were treated to a spectacular sunrise. as the sky brightened, we saw just how far up 3000 meters really is. the rugged dessert mountains and the sand valleys below seemed almost unearthly from such a vantage point. shortly after sunrise, the crowds dispersed and we were left with a few moments of solitude to pray and give thanks for all of the blessings we have and for all of the experiences of our 8 months adventuring around the earth.
our descent back down the steep stairs and never-ending switchbacks was somewhat less grueling, but challenging none-the-less. we ended our hike, where it began, at the greek orthodox monastery of st. catherine's. the chapel at st. catherine's is one of the oldest surviving christian sites in the world and it is home to what is regarded as the burning bush where god spoke to moses. the beautifully maintained gardens and walkways made for a nice end to our long night of climbing. after re-boarding the bus back to dahab, our group of 12, alina and i included, quickly fell to sleep. we made it back to the jasmine guesthouse in time for breakfast, a shower and a long afternoon in the confines of our air conditioned room catching up on missed sleep and resting our tired legs. david

Tuesday, June 24, 2008

from alexandria to dahab

















after three full days of touring luxor, we took an overnight train back to cairo then another 2 hour train north to the seaside city of alexandria. founded by alexander the great, its the site of one of the ancient wonders of the world, the pharos lighthouse. we really didn't do much in the city, besides relax in the cooler temperatures, enjoy the mediterranean views, and gorge ourselves on fantastic fresh seafood - it made for a nice few days. we returned to cairo for only one night, to see jason off to the airport. bye jason…we had a blast hanging out! after jason's departure david and i boarded a 9 hour bus headed to the sinai peninsula - which is where we are now, in the resort town of dahab. we've been enjoying the relaxed vibe from our beach-front room overlooking the red sea. the rugged coastline of saudi arabia seems so near in the distance across the water. tonight we're taking an excursion, or pilgrimage we might say to mount sinai and the monastery of st catherine. we leave at 11pm…we'll keep you posted.

alina

the egypt mask












king tutankhamun ruled egypt for 9 years during the 14th century bc. the tomb of the pharaoh was discovered by an english archeologist in 1922 and is known as one of the most famous tombs in the valley of the kings because of the priceless collection of pharaonic treasures that were buried with the mummy.

the original death mask, on exhibition at the cairo egyptian museum, is made of solid gold and weighs 11kg. the mask is an idealized portrait of the young pharaoh and covered the head of the mummy, where it laid inside a series of three sarcophagi. seeing the original death mask and the tutankhamun galleries at the egyptian museum was definitely a highlight during our visit. this is the mask from egypt. it is the pharaoh tutankhamun.

alina

Sunday, June 22, 2008

and more eating in egypt...



fiteer is often inadequately described as an 'egyptian pancake' on restaurant menus. in fact, even the best fiteer place in cairo is called the egyptian pancake house. however, fiteer is far from a pancake... thinly rolled and hand tossed dough, loaded with a wide variety of savory or sweet toppings and baked in a wood fired pizza oven - the result is a crispy, ultra thin, bubbly dough filled with your choice of ingredients. some of our favorites are a savory version stuffed with lamb kofta, tomatoes, olives and onions - another is sweet, filled with pastry cream, hazelnuts and golden raisins - then loaded with butter, sugar and milk curds after baking.



egypt has a vibrant coffee house culture. drinking super sweet mint tea, caffeine loaded turkish coffee and smoking a sheesha (water pipe) loaded with apple tobacco is a regular part of every egyptian's day. the norm is to be served a copper, brass or silver tray holding your drink order. then all you have to do is sit back and let a few hours pass by before deciding where to go eat lunch or dinner... no wonder egyptians smile and laugh so damn much.



koshari is everywhere... it is the heart and soul of egyptian quick eats and does for egyptians what biscuits and gravy do for me... koshari is a carbo load mixture of browm rice, lentils, chickpeas, tube pasta and brown vermicelli, doctored up with fried onions, cumin spiced tomato sauce, chile pepper sauce and fresh lemon/lime juice. the best comes from abu tarek in downtown cairo - a four story restaurant that serves nothing but koshari - and it is packed all day long... we ate there more than a few times, but also managed to sample other versions of it outside of the capital...



baklava comes in all shapes and sizes throughout the mediterranean and middle east. they are all basically, mixed fruit or nuts layered with phyllo dough, baked and then soaked in honey. they are sticky and super sweet - perfect served with egyptian or turkish coffee and guarantied to induce a food coma when you over indulge in them...

more egyptian eating...



i love shwarma - mixed beef and lamb trimmings spit roasted and carved to order, served with grilled tomatoes and onions on a warm roll slathered with thahini - perfection... in cairo you can't make it down a city block without finding at least a few little shops like this one - and believe me, i found my way into more than a few too...



aish, or bread, is the basis of every egyptian meal. long gone are our rice eating days of asia. now alina has a different type of carbohydrate to fret over. not me though, i try to eat as much of it as possible. this is a whole wheat version, while the majority is a simpler, thinner white flour version.



moussaka, yet another eggplant variation... this one is a rich, creamy and cheesy version served bubbling hot in a crock filled with stewed eggplant, tomaotes, onions, green peppers, cumin and black pepper. we also had lighter versions, without dairy, served in more of a tomato based sauce. both are excellent. they are usually accompanied with some steamed rice mixed with a little whole wheat vermicelli noodles on the side.



greek salad, shepherd's salad, egyptian salad... this one has a variety of different names on the menu, but they are all basically the same. ripe tomatoes, cucumbers, olives, parsley, onion and some sour goat milk cheese with lemons, olive oil, salt and pepper. a much welcomed relief after 2 months of fearing fresh vegetables (and the stomach problems they caused) in india...




eggplant is it's own food group in egypt. served fried, stuffed, pickled, pureed, stewed... you name it and the egyptians have managed to perfect it. this version is part of the mezze, a cold salad of fried eggplant, tomatoes and parsley served with a few lemon/lime wedges.

eating in egypt

so, after two weeks in egypt, i have long forgotten our banana leaf lunch and masala dosa overload of india. instead, we have been wowed with the abundance and variety of vegetables, meats and seafood in north africa. egyptian food is based around bread, mezze and grilled proteins. in the last 14 odd days, we have had our fair share of all three. we have eaten in numerous stand-up, fast food restaurants in cairo, sampled koshari (egyptian soul food) and gorged on seafood on the mediterranean coast. i have tried to take pictures of most of it, a task that was often forgotten as the food was sat on the table in front of us. in the following few posts, i'll try to show you a few of the region favorites.



there is lots of fresh cheese in egypt. most of it is creamy and slightly fermented, giving it a nice tart, sour flavor. it is a staple of the collection of mezze, or appetizers, that is served before the main courses. most times, fresh cucumbers, tomatoes and olives, along with olive oil and cracked pepper, are served around or along side for dipping.



fuul, pronounced fowl, is a staple for breakfast, lunch and dinner in egypt. take-aways sell fuul pitas for about 10 cents and a few of them will get you through a long afternoon of sightseeing. in this version, served in a small restaurant in alexandria, the beans were covered with fried garlic and drowned in olive oil. again, great with some egyptian bread to soak it all up.



stuffed grape leaves are a staple food of the middle east and mediterranean. for the uninitiated, they are brined grape leaves stuffed with rice and spices and steamed until the rice is tender. they are great both hot and cold and are often served, rehaeted in a little vegetable broth with caramelized onions and tomatoes. the egyptian name for them is wara einab.



grilled kidneys - offal meats, organs and brains are readily available in every restaurant. fast food places serve grilled liver sandwiches and brains stuffed into pita. it is everywhere. we (actually just me, alina and jason passed... go figure) had grilled kidneys at a little place in alexandria. i was really surprised at how great they were. really tender and mild no strong flavors. they were served over watercress, just like kofta, and were delicious eaten the same way in pita with raw veggies and thahini.




kofta is minced beef or lamb, often mixed together. it is spiced and formed onto skewers before being griled. most of the time, it is served over some chopped bitter greens like watercress or arugula. it is best stuffed into some aish, egypt's version of pita. with a few cucumbers, tomatoes and some thahini, it makes for a perfect dinner - one of my favorites, for sure.

Thursday, June 19, 2008

the baksheesh bandits























baksheesh = tip

baksheesh bandit = one that performs a "duty" with the hopes of receiving a baksheesh

archeological remains indicate that the luxor area has been inhabited for over 6000 years. wow…now that's old. egypt's greatest attraction after the pyramids, luxor is often described as "the word's largest open-air museum" and was a must-see on our list of places in egypt to visit. aside from the 105 degree temperature, the obnoxious souvenir touts (do you know how much?), and the incessant baksheesh bandits - our three days of touring luxor proved to be nothing short of spectacular. we spend two of the days touring the east bank and visiting the incredible luxor and karnak temples. as independent tourists, we are definitely the minority as we are easily enveloped by seas of hundreds of package tourists being herded around like cattle. egyptian tour guides lead the groups around speaking in japanese, french, spanish, korean, and english. the baksheesh bandits: the numerous "unofficial" guides who gave us tidbits of information and explanations, and the armed security guards who let jason into a couple of restricted areas.

mohammed, our hired driver for the day, picks us up at 7am to begin our tour of the west bank. our first stop is the valley of the kings, an isolated rock canyon that is the final resting place for much of the egyptian royalty. in all, about 62 tombs have been excavated; the 60 LE ($12.00 usd) admission fee allows us to view three, in which we select tuthmosis III, ramses I, and ramses IV. the tombs and striking canyon area are really interesting and amazing sights to see. the baksheesh bandits: a couple of "unofficial" guides who gave explanation of hieroglyphs, the ticket taker at the ramses IV tomb that loaned me a cardboard fan, a man who shined a flashlight into the tomb of tuthmosis III so we could see some intricate carvings, and the non-smiling woman who demanded a baksheesh for me to use one of the nasty backed-up toilets with no toilet paper. unreal. following the valley of the kings, we visit the temple of hatshepsut, a partly rock-cut structure that is one of the finest monuments of ancient egypt. following some potent turkish coffee, we lastly visit the amazing medinat habu temple complex with its mud brick ruins of the surrounding medieval town. we end the tour with a 20 LE baksheesh for mohammed, who certainly deserves and needs it for his two wives and four children at home. prior to exiting his cab, mohamed recites his hopes and wishes for our futures:

1. when we return to egypt he hopes he will have a third wife - perhaps one that is nubian, because he likes black skin. he says she will live on the third floor of his home, since wife number one lives on the first floor and wife number two lives on the second floor. makes perfect sense to me…

2. when we return to egypt he hopes he will have more children - perhaps more boys so they may grow up to work in the fields of his family's land.

3. when we return to egypt he hopes that david and i have a child of our own.

4. when we return to egypt he hopes that jason will have a wife - and if not, he will assist in getting him an egyptian wife. this may actually work out rather well, because jason says he likes the headscarf "look" and he finds the sight of a woman drinking a mcdonald's milkshake under a burka quite intriguing and sexy…

alina

Thursday, June 12, 2008

My arrival in Egypt






















Ever since learning about Egypt from the early years of school, I have wanted to make the visit. Then when talking with my uncle many years ago he told me about an article that encouraged you to make a list of 100 things you wanted to do in your life. I made my list and second on my list was Egypt! However, I never figured I would find a situation that would allow me to make the Journey with others, and going into such a foreign country rattled my nerves. Then when talking with David and Alina about their trip I discovered that I now knew somebody making the same journey that I have always desired.

Soon after taking off from NY, I felt much like a child going on the worlds largest rollercoaster with every inch of ground I covered I knew I was in closer to my goal. Alina and David were very nice and meet me at the Airport, to soon find that my security pouch with all my money was already missing, after a walk around the Airport I found my pouch in the backroom of the main security room who just wanted to make sure I understood that I could get all my money back for a small price 40 US.

That night I took my first walk into the brawling city that reminded me much of New York until we walked 3 more blocks and then I realized I was in another land. I was very surprised at how kind and little hassle we all had to deal with, and despite all the information about a dirty city it was clean enough and the sights and sounds made the little problems such as missing sidewalk grates no problem.

The next day we took the trip to the Pyramids of Giza (the great Pyramids) "The sole survivor of the Seven Wonders of the World." After getting off the bus we were met with several people who were willing to tell us a half-mile walk was over 3 miles but we knew better because of Alinas much LP reading. My camera came out and took the first of 35 pictures in a very short period of time. The Sphinx was much like meeting a TV personality in the flesh - always smaller than had been imagined but still an amazing sight when looking at the 3 Pyramids in the backdrop. We paid our fees for the Camel shot that one couldn't leave Egypt without! As well as I paid out the 100 pounds to make the journey up into the main chamber, nothing like the movie but a quick touch of the 4000-year-old wall still made ones jaw drop.

This has been the most amazing experience of any vacation trip to date! As I sit in a Coffee shop smoking Shisha and drinking tea one can not help but thank my uncle for the idea of the list so many years ago.

- Jason